DVD Forum approves 51GB triple-layer HD DVD spec

Toshiba's been demoing a triple-layer hybrid HD DVD / DVD system for a couple years now, but it's been all unofficial until today, when the DVD Forum steering committee voted to approve the spec as part of the official HD DVD standard. The third 15GB layer bumps the total capacity of HD DVD up to 51GB, matching Blu-ray's 50GB disks. Of course, we wouldn't expect to see a flood of content on the new disks anytime soon, what with all those shiny new double-layer players getting sold right now, but it's interesting to see HD DVD step up in the one area Blu-ray was clearly superior. The stalemate continues!

[David Lee @ Jan 31st 2008 10:57AM]

My CPU is a neural net processor, a learning computer.

[bigassmuffin @ Nov 15th 2007 9:18PM]

The average Blue Ray disc uses 25 -> 30 gigs, so who cares that it held 50 gigs...

I can almost guarantee the HD DVDs are going to use this full 51 gig capacity as well.

[bigassmuffin @ Nov 15th 2007 9:20PM]

I meant to say "not going to use"; my B XD

[EngadgetFanBoi @ Nov 15th 2007 10:58PM]

Well, for me at least, the advantage of Blu-ray's higher capacity and higher spec in general is that ideally, this format will be widely adopted, once/if one format ever wins.

So, just like you can burn 8.7 gig discs with your dual layer DVD burner, you would be able to burn 50 gig discs with you Blu-ray burner. Now this is already possible, but the price will continually drop in the coming years.

[Billy Fiul @ Nov 16th 2007 3:27AM]

A stalemate this is not. A stalemate occurs when one player is not in check, but cannot legally move anywhere. The correct chess metaphor here is draw, probably one caused by the fifty move rule. I realize "stalemate" sounds more sophisticated than simply "draw," but it should not be used here, since usually one player has a major advantage in a stalemate, which is definitely not the case in this HD game.

[ssuk @ Nov 16th 2007 4:28AM]

I'd use 51GB of DATA on a HDDVD disc, gotta back up my porn somehow...

[E71 @ Nov 16th 2007 9:34AM]

Gotta love the idiots only thinking about how much space a single movie takes up on a single BD/HDDVD disc. We backup our own stuff on them too...

Besides, isn't ~50GB like, the end of the line for HDDVD whilst Bluray will eventually go all the way to ~200GB, if not at least ~100GB...

[Scotty Luther @ Nov 16th 2007 12:03PM]

The only reason most are just using 25-30GB is because those are made by companies that support both formats. They are just using one encode for both the Blu-Ray disc, and the HD-DVD disc, instead of using two seperate ones, like they should! They are not fully using the Blu-Ray potential, and this hurts the Blu-Ray supporters as they are paying for HD-DVD's mistakes.
I see this 51GB HD-DVD disc as a good thing, even though I am a BD supporter, because now the companies have NO excuse for not using the full space and specs for both, as they are now both the same size.

[Jensen @ Nov 16th 2007 1:11PM]

@Scotty Luther
The majority BD discs are not even using the same codec so they are hardly "using one encode" as you say. It's more like Blu Ray is paying for it's own mistakes.

[Temple @ Nov 19th 2007 3:13AM]

Most Blu-ray exclusive content comes close to 50GB, movies that are encoded for both formats are around 30GBs due to HD-DVD size limitations.

Disney's Pirates of the Caribbean used 75 GBs (one full 50GB disk and a 25GB disk for extra content they couldn't fit on the 50GB disk).

[Mile @ Nov 15th 2007 9:22PM]

Forget movies. We're talking pr0n here. I mean data backup.

[DarkLightConnection @ Nov 15th 2007 9:28PM]

Yes, it rocks as a backup storage...

I can backup my whole p0rn collection in just a few discs!.... err, i mean, the data of my projects...

[AlexP @ Nov 15th 2007 10:03PM]

I love how they still haven't figured that putting makeup on in HD (movies and TV alike) looks atrocious.

The porn industry fails.

Rule #34 on HD war now.

[Dan @ Nov 15th 2007 10:12PM]

Sadly, I would have to delete some things to get it on that one disk.

[kwwk @ Nov 16th 2007 11:37AM]

It sounds great for data backup, but HD DVD burners are hardly even available currently. On top of that, multi-layer burning is a difficult thing to do (kind of the same reason why it took so long to get dual-layer DVD-/+Rs). So who knows how long it'll be before we even see triple-layer HD DVD-R drives, probably years.

[Brian @ Nov 15th 2007 9:36PM]

I'm not so much concerned over data size, but the ability of the drives to actually read through 2 layers of media consistently and without problems. Nothing would be worse than writing a whole bunch of backup data only to find out the third layer becomes completely unreadable due to some 'problem' with the media later in its life. Even reading through one layer can be questionable, but I trust it more than I trust a laser to properly read through two layers of media. Of course, Blu-Ray will also add a third layer (like it needs it) and move it's size to 75GB with 3 layers (but still the 3 layer issue persists). Although, I'd be surprised if Toshiba can create a player that properly reads through 3 layers to get to the fourth. So, I wouldn't expect any quad layer media any time soon.

[Bent Cardan @ Nov 15th 2007 9:37PM]

Bent Cardan : very cool.

[dkffiv @ Nov 16th 2007 9:26AM]

Get Bent

[Dhanik @ Nov 15th 2007 9:38PM]

And now Toshiba can boast of having 1 GB more capacity than Blu-ray. As far as i see it, this is gonna end with the release of dual-format players coz people will be pissed off if they are made to buy the same movie again in another format.

As a friend of mine says, he won't buy a high-def movie until he can buy a $30 dual-format player at Walmart!

[Jack Storm @ Nov 15th 2007 9:49PM]

lol il laugh at your buddy while i watch my high definition movies

[finnith @ Nov 15th 2007 9:51PM]

Unlike you, I prefer to spend my money on more productive things


Like video games....

[EngadgetFanBoi @ Nov 15th 2007 11:05PM]

@ finnith

Make more money. Video game consoles help by lowering the price of entry into the Hi-Def movie arena.

Don't let the format war keep you from enjoying the beauty that is High Definition.

[Joe Anstine @ Nov 15th 2007 9:44PM]

bout time HD-DVD stepped up their game; i wanna see some blood in Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD fight!

[Penguin Warlord @ Nov 15th 2007 9:45PM]

Induce mindless fanboy blathering 3...2...1...go.

[paul34 @ Nov 15th 2007 11:51PM]

APPLE ROX, M$ SUCKS!

oh whoops, wrong thread. danget, I did that again!

[Sy @ Nov 15th 2007 9:45PM]

Just like the TL45, the new TL51 spec is nothing but vaporware until they actually come out with a product that is compatible for current players.

[seoultrain @ Nov 15th 2007 9:49PM]

lol, Penguin Warload totally owned you pre-post.

[Reggie @ Nov 15th 2007 9:52PM]

This does not address the bit rate differences. To many it is all about performance - but then again I still have my Beta HiFi :)

[TheGuy @ Nov 15th 2007 9:53PM]

I don't think this will even work on current players, so I doubt this will have much of an effect on the format war (aside from bragging rights). Anyways, we already know the Blu-Ray camp has had a 100GB Blu-Ray disk in development (uncertainty over whether that'll work on current players too), so I doubt HD DVD will be able to brag about having more storage for long.

[Daren @ Nov 15th 2007 10:00PM]

it will work on current players.

However, that (what was it?) six layer multi hundred gigabyte disk your referring two would not...

[Jason @ Nov 16th 2007 8:54AM]

Even if it doesn't work on current players that doesn't mean they won't just change the spec and screw everyone like they did with DVD.

I paid $500 for my first Pioneer DVD player... only problem was that it didn't read dual layer discs.

When the dual layer discs started coming out I'd buy movies and then just not be able to watch them. I called Pioneer to ask them what was up after seeing tons of people that owned the same player complaining online.

Their solution? "Send the player back to us (on my dime btw) and we'll put a new drive in it for $200 that'll be able to read the new dual layered discs."

NOT joking.

[mike @ Nov 15th 2007 10:00PM]

Ya thats a way to compete, three layers of toshiba = 2 layers from sony... times 10, 30 layers toshiba is the same thing as 20 layers from sony (hypothetically). Why didn't this morons at Toshiba make a better system and Disks in the first place, instead of adding layers (which means triple the price by the way)..

[Tyler @ Nov 15th 2007 10:11PM]

I hate to question the mighty wisdom of Engadget, but shouldn't it read '17 GB' layers and not '15 GB' layers? Unless 15 x 3 is 51.

[Dave @ Nov 15th 2007 10:51PM]

Yes. It is 17GB/layer.

[shawnmos @ Nov 16th 2007 12:18AM]

Because of backwards compatibility with DVDs and CDs. HD DVD was designed so that they could use the same laser to read all 3 disc types. At the same time they can use preexisting DVD manufacturing plants to manufacture HD DVDs because the two are very similar.

Blu-ray on the other hand is not backwards compatible. Blu-ray players have to have 2 lasers. One to read CDs and DVDs and another to read BDs. This is a result of blu-rays vastly different focal point. Using this focal point means the lens has to be glass instead of plastic (like CD, DVD, and HD DVD) because even the tiniest imperfection will result in disc read errors.

Also, using this focal point requires the data layer to be very close to the edge of the disc, requiring them to coat every disc with a scratch proof coating because the discs are more fragile (a small scratch will rip off the data layer). This increases the costs of making each disc.

In addition, BDs cannot be make in preexisting DVD plants because the process is too different so new manufacturing plants have to be built specifically for BD production.

Sounds like Toshiba has the better product to me. Blu-ray may look better on paper, but HD DVD is better in practice. It is much cheaper to produce with little to no difference in quality.

[sycks @ Nov 15th 2007 10:11PM]

Um not to be a fanboy or supporter of any format but that article linked is from September 11, 2007. This same article was brought on www.eproductwars.com today and the AVS Forums. Please at least read the article before writing up a summary.

[Jonathan-DBOSS @ Nov 15th 2007 10:12PM]

ALL HD-DVD fanboys can go crazy now. As for Blu-ray fanboys, they can brag about other features. [And the heated war continues...]

[sycks @ Nov 15th 2007 10:14PM]

http://www.dvdforum.org/40scmtg-resolution.htm

Here's what you should link to.

[010100 @ Nov 15th 2007 10:35PM]

Damn that HDDVD guys still with hope thats means that the BR its more powerfull that ever :).
Im just waiting to see the BR-QL(Quad Layer) strike back LOL!

[JB @ Nov 16th 2007 3:09AM]

Although yourself up for a Star Wars quip I am not going to gratify you with one.

[JB @ Nov 16th 2007 3:10AM]

errr, "you set yourself up for" ...more coffee! STAT!

[Jeff @ Nov 15th 2007 10:40PM]

This is meaningless. All Blu-Ray players can take advantage of 50GB Blu-Ray discs. How many HD-DVD players can take advantage of 51GB HD-DVD discs? I'll tell you how many: zero.

Does it really count as "bragging rights" if you've just created a spec that's incompatible with all of your players?

[Neal @ Nov 15th 2007 10:51PM]

Where has it been stated that this is incompatible with current players? I know I saw where they have said they don't know yet, but that in order to make the distinction, a firmware update would definitely have to happen (which the players are capable of, most have Ethernet, the rest can update with a DVD loaded with the update).

[ahhhhhhhhh @ Nov 16th 2007 8:37AM]

BD 1.1... not all players have an ethernet port. Not all older players will even be capable of the update.

[ian9outof10 @ Nov 16th 2007 10:16AM]

If you think current HD DVD players can't play 51GB discs, then you're wrong and mis-informed.

At the very LEAST all the third gen players will be able to cope with these discs and from what I can tell, it's VERY likely second gen players will be fine too.

[Jason @ Nov 16th 2007 12:13PM]

Indeed. Anyone wonder why Toshiba are deadly silent on the subject? Surely if all that was required was a firmware update, don't you think they will be shouting from the rooftops?

The sad fact is, nothing on the market today will play these 51GB discs, and the only reason they are around, is to make HD DVD look like it still has a chance.

[Silverfrog @ Nov 16th 2007 4:21PM]

re: ahhhhhhhhhhhhh

Show me a player that cannot do firmware updates. Even the ones that do not have ethernet can be updated either with discs, or as a factory upgrade by shipping the unit in or bringing it to a service center.

[Jeff @ Nov 15th 2007 10:41PM]

Oh, and furthering that, what happens when manufacturers start making triple-layer players and the movie studios start making triple-layer discs? Yeah, that's gonna be great for all those consumers that have already bought dual layer players. The HD-DVD camp is obviously *so* much more consumer friendly than BD... right?

[reticulate @ Nov 15th 2007 10:52PM]

What if it's not for movies?

[linuxamp @ Nov 15th 2007 10:48PM]

Anyone know if there is file size limit is on these discs? Could one write a 50GB encrypted container file to store sensitive data? I assume this would require UDF support on the recorder and OS.