In a strange turn of events, Blu-ray discs are outselling HD DVDs, and now the HD DVD format has taken the lead in capacity -- who would've think it?
Toshiba just announced that it has successfully created a triple-layer disc with 17GB per layer, which amounts to 51GB, a full GB more than those dual-layer Blu-ray discs can muster. We heard about the size gains
at CES this year, but Toshiba is already in the process of submitting the new extension of the format to regulatory approval, however, the word on the street still amounts to a potential Q4 release, and it's still unclear at this time what kind of manufacturing costs or complications these new discs will incur. We'll say it again: the format war is far from over.
Reader Comments (Page 1 of 2)
Scooter @ Feb 28th 2007 10:37PM
51 gig... dam! Can't wait to see what these cost. The disk alone will probably be 50 clams.
Scooter
http://www.gadgetgrid.com/
steve @ Feb 28th 2007 10:58PM
just to let ya know, there's a big difference in the cost for a fab to make these and the cost to buy a recordable version. Also, last I checked there isn't a movie out there that can fill a full 50 gigs. So unless you're looking to back up you're HD (which should take a lot more than 51 gigs), this doesn't mean squat. The only thing that people should concern themselfs about is compression tech which = the quality of these movies. Otherwise, the whole capacity issue is just a dumb pissing contest.
Someone @ Feb 28th 2007 10:39PM
"...and now the HD DVD format has taken the lead in capacity -- who would've think it?"
This isn't technically true. Toshiba said it has successfully created a 51 GB HD DVD disc, but since it isn't released yet you can't compare it to the already available 50 GB Blu-Ray disc. By that regard, you should be comparing it to the 100 GB Blu-Ray discs that are in development (although there's uncertainty of how far each is in development).
Rick wilson @ Mar 1st 2007 2:18PM
True, unreleased technology should be compared to unreleased technology, 51GB HD DVD compared to the 100GB Blu-ray disc (releasing in 2008), and 200 GB working in the labs (releasing 2010).
Its impossible for HD DVD to win, it only has one movie company, not many burners (and 1X at that), and low capacity. WAR OVER.
Brennan @ Feb 28th 2007 10:47PM
HD-DVD pwnz!
King Emperor @ Feb 28th 2007 10:51PM
Unfortunately, this article leaves a lot left to question. Primarily, will this work on all current HD-DVD players natively, with a firmware update, or not at all?
Also, HD-DVD hardly has an "edge" on space, anyone else heard about TDK's 200GB Blu-ray disks (As seen at CES 2007)?
http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753812p1.html
SONIC @ Feb 28th 2007 11:01PM
I new a BR fan was bound to put that news about the TDK disc. HAHAHAHAHA The one up will never stop. But this has this....O.. O...but this can have even more O..O...O...I HAVE A BIGGER SAUSAGE!!! Dammit just support both formats. I am not going to side with any of these bastard companies. I am the consumer give me what i want dammit. If I invested in of the formats who cares. People are willing to spend the money. Give them what they want. Support for both...damn money hungry bastards!!
Eric M @ Feb 28th 2007 10:57PM
I hope Sony looses just because they made MemoryStick.
Echo_ @ Feb 28th 2007 11:00PM
I hope Sony loses just because they helped usher in CD-ROM and DVD, as well as backing the floppy disk... darn you Sony...selfish Sony
King Emperor @ Feb 28th 2007 11:12PM
I for one hope that one format cleanly wins. It's been pointed out again and again that consumers are not upgrading to HD disc content largely because of the confusion and worry over backing the wrong one.
Brennan @ Feb 28th 2007 11:01PM
dont u mean the PSP? As far as i can see in sales n replay value of PSP games in reviews, PSP isnt doing so hot, n it has better graphics, a huge screen, n can even connect to the internet.
DS Lite is doing a lot better, hope to have one soon, but first i need a job, which im looking into.
Jaw04005 @ Feb 28th 2007 11:06PM
When Toshiba and the DVD Forum annouce support from Disney and 20th Century Fox, I'll care.
toki9 @ Feb 28th 2007 11:14PM
Please, just make it stop. Get this "war" over with!!!
Castle @ Feb 28th 2007 11:16PM
Too bad 100GB and 200GB Blu-rays have already been announced. And 3-layer HD-DVDs aren't compatible with the with current lasers in HD-DVD players right now that can only read 2-layers.
Dave @ Feb 28th 2007 11:22PM
Where did you read that they're not compatible with current players?
Greenster @ Feb 28th 2007 11:39PM
The format war will only serve to delay the takeup of this new technology until a clear winner emerges... which might not be technically the best, but which will no doubt have the best marketing and spin doctors... I'm backing Sony to win... I think the PS3 will be a massive push along for it... also... "Blu-Ray" - what a great name ;-) ;-)
Cheers,
Henton
DigiVista Digital Photo Frames
http://www.digivista.com.au/
Veritas II @ Feb 28th 2007 11:57PM
Wow, what classy Sony Haters you Engadget guys are breeding. The Rape Train... is that the kind of thing you guys support?
SH @ Mar 1st 2007 12:03AM
Suckit Sony fanboys.
John @ Mar 1st 2007 12:19AM
I totally just don't care at all anymore...I'll probably end up with Blu-ray because I end up buying Sony Products even though I know they cost more (is it that bad that they typically just look so much nicer overall on top of working?)
but seriously, w/e...im not shelling out anywhere near $1000 for a stand alone player, nor $600ish for a PS3...so it'll be quite some time before this "format war" actually has any impact whatsoever other than me saying "oh look, there's blue and red boxes now too"
And I have NO need whatsoever for a 50gb disc...thats what a HDD is for.
sinjinn @ Mar 1st 2007 6:20AM
thats what you said when we were all about to shift to CD's. you were all like... oh, but i dont even need that much capacity, floppies are enough.. dont you ever learn? havnt you heard of moore's law? you dont want to break a law do you? you want to go to jail?
rob @ Mar 1st 2007 12:19AM
i like how someone above referenced that sony had something to do with the implementation of dvds, cds, and floppies. well they also had minidisc, umd, betamax. sony has the reputation of pouring money into a losing cause, and although blu-ray hasn't lost yet, it soon will in my belief.
sinjinn @ Mar 1st 2007 5:58AM
"i like how someone above referenced that sony had something to do with the implementation of dvds, cds, and floppies. well they also had minidisc, umd, betamax. sony has the reputation of pouring money into a losing cause, and although blu-ray hasn't lost yet, it soon will in my belief."
I dont know why you are including UMD . UMD is meant for bringing games to the psp ( and movies) . It is is not a recordable media . you cannot go in to a shop and buy a UMD R+. sony have never pushed it as a recordable media storage format. it still works too, so it does its job.
Also what is so wrong with the fact that soemtimes they miss with thier targets. It doesn't care if they suceed anly once or twice
but if they dont even try they migth aswelllshut the company down right now.
Jeff @ Mar 1st 2007 12:21AM
"And it's hard enough already trying to figure out what to put on a 4GB DVD disc to use it to capacity...51GB?!!"
You're obviously not familiar with the storage requirements of high-def content...
Most modern DVD's actually use the full 9GB available to them on a dual-layer disc. That's not all strictly for the movie - some is for special features and whatnot - but then that's true of HD-DVD and Blu-Ray also.
But what you don't seem to realize is that the difference between 720x480 and 1920x1080 is eight-fold. You would need eight times the data storage to get the same content stored at the higher resolution. That means if you max out a 9GB DVD (and many are), you would need 72GB to fit the same content on an HD-DVD or BD, all else being equal. No such optical disc even exists yet.
Of course, all else *isn't* equal, and we now have more efficient video codecs than the MPEG2 used on DVD. So we can squeeze more data in without losing (much) quality. Of course, this isn't magic, and codecs have not gotten twice as efficient in less than a decade, whatever their backers (who have a financial interest in their success) will tell you. So try to cram a full-length 1920x1080 film onto a 25GB HD-DVD and you are going to have to make sacrifices, either in the number of extras you incude or in the bit rate of the film. It's the same as DVD, where some discs just look awful because the bit rates are too low in order to fit everything on one disc. The bottom line is 1920x1080 content needs approximately 8 times the bit rate just to look the *same*, per pixel, as 720x480 content. (Obviously there are more pixels so the overall picture is sharper, but there can still be more compression artifacts.)
So I think it's good for everyone involved here to a) root for an increase in storage capacity for these discs, and b) root for whichever side to win that has the greater storage capacity and the higher data transfer speeds. This announcement today doesn't really change the fact that that's Blu-Ray. HD-DVD has been doing all it can just to keep up with Blu-Ray - it's on the verge of equalling Blu-Ray now but only by using a triple-layered disc. There's not a hell of a lot more they can squeeze out, and anyway, these discs aren't even actually on the market yet. Blu-Ray has much higher capacity discs in the pipeline too, as has been mentioned.
Anyway, the war basically *is* over already, not really because BD has better technical specs (which it does), but because it has better industry support among the movie studios. That's what really matters. When a family can buy Disney movies on one format but not the other, which format do you think has the upper hand?
Uranium @ Mar 1st 2007 4:15AM
I think you're over-estimating the influence of Disney. Children seldom care whether their favorite Disney Classic is on DVD or VHS, much less in HD.
sinjinn @ Mar 1st 2007 5:58AM
actually sony has most of the major studios behind them. disney , i think, was just one example .
Broo98 @ Mar 4th 2007 5:10AM
The BluRay and HD-DVD rips that are on Usenet are both about the same size- around 30GB; the other 20GB on a BluRay discs is wasted space.
An actual 1080p feature movie is only about 20GB of HDCP content; the other 10GB on a disc is extras (most not in 1080p). 20GB is all that is needed for a 2 hour 1080p movie in H.264/MPEG-4 AVC.
they only time anything over 30GB will become necessary is when it involves a computer for backup or archiving- unless someone wants to put all three of the extended episodes of The Lord of the Rings movies on one disc; then both BluRay (current format) and HD-DVD (51GB) will be in lacking...
Alex @ Mar 1st 2007 12:24AM
I still believe that Blu-Ray will ultimately win the war... mark my words!
v_dogg @ Mar 1st 2007 12:45AM
i wish we could skip the whole moving Parts erra such as cd's blu-ray etc. Lets skip to modernized no moving parts. i want a movie on a card. and dont give me BS about how flash and crap is so expensive. its all marketing.
LE @ Mar 1st 2007 12:53AM
Wow! what the heck are you going to put on a 51GB disc. I havent even filed up 80GB on my computer.
Instead of ordering movies one at a time just order 12 per disc.
david ashmore @ Mar 1st 2007 1:29AM
OK so 6 layers on a single blu-ray makes up 200 gig and this looses how?
For all the folks like myself out there who do high def video, sound and also need this volume for it, why the hell do we not want it to win?
I think we need to stop bitching about the company as much as the technology, hey i say they have won because when the porn industry says they are doing blu-ray, Baby it is over...............
And yes you can quote me on that.
Geoff Gibson @ Mar 1st 2007 1:56AM
To be honest, and for the love of god do not flame me for this, HD DvD has better movies. I have looked at each of their pretty expansive collections and HD DvD just has more movies that I'd love to see in HD, mostly action titles like Constantine, Troy, and the soon to be released Matrix and LOTR trilogies.
Does this account to which one looks better? No, I can't tell which one looks better as they have both looked stunning when I saw them, but HD DvD has the movies I want therefor they get my business.
Stop pledging blind loyalty to a company. If a company is offering something you want then take it even if your a 360 fanboy who finds he likes Blu-ray movies better or a PS3 fanboy who likes HD DvD movies better.
I'll be hopping on the HD DvD train within the next couple of weeks and NOT because I have some love affair with Microsoft, or some bitter hatred for Sony.
King Emperor @ Mar 1st 2007 2:07AM
I understand what you are saying, but your facts are misleading. Constantine, Troy, The Matrix and LOTR trilogies are all produced by Warner Bros. which is backing both Blu-ray and HD-DVD.
Dave @ Mar 1st 2007 2:04AM
Blu-ray has 100GB and 200GB soon to be released.
And this 3layer 51GB thing will cost double the 50GB Blu-ray... on top of that will not be compatible with current players
SirMasterboy @ Mar 1st 2007 2:44AM
I'm more interested in how long it takes to burn thoes 50GB on either format.
CB @ Mar 1st 2007 4:03AM
This whole HD mania is bolax, resolution means nothing IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME PONTLESS RACE AS IN CAMERAS! I've got shedloads of HD content and 50 percent of it is no better to look at than ordinary DVD, a very high bitrate clip that has been transfered with some care is far better at normal DVD resolution that a half-assed transfer at 1080.
It's the bitrate, compression and the quality of the transfer from film that counts not the resolution.
Nick @ Mar 1st 2007 5:00AM
This capacity is very important for digital photographers and viedographers.
Dave @ Mar 1st 2007 5:41AM
"and now the HD DVD format has taken the lead in capacity"
Oh yeah?
And what about this:
Panasonic says that its 100GB Blu-ray discs will last a century:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/10/19/panasonic-says-that-its-100gb-blu-ray-discs-will-last-a-century/
And this:
TDKs 200GB Blu-ray D survives wire wool!
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7612
I am sure that this thing will not be compatible with current player because of extended layers (17GB instead of 15GB and on top of that 3 layers instead 2) and will cost double!
And what about that you can overburn the 50GB Blu-ray to 53GB (2 layers -> we have seen it with 2 layer DVD) while you cant overburn a maxed 17GB layer (on top of that 3 of them) havent seen this yet.
You can do that with the current Blu-ray drives:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=2615
while for hd dvd there are not drives...
This disc is science fiction! LOL
sinjinn @ Mar 1st 2007 6:05AM
actually my friend, TDK has sucessfully created 100 gb and 200 gb disks, and this was a few months ago so they are both not released . but really , my friend......if they have to triple layer that HD DVD just to get to where blu ray already is then lets all go with blu ray rather than having to change formats again in a few years. makes sense no?
Leo Lee @ Mar 1st 2007 6:08AM
Release the damn HD movies to the peoples! That's what we all really want! It's like a hockey fight where the refs just stand around and watch the fight till it drops to the ground pretty much dead... it may be entertaining to watch the festivities but it's ultimately slowing down the progress of the overall game... push it out you greedy studio mofo~s... with the majority of studios backing BD, you'd think that they spam it to victory in order to get the field dedicated to one format to enhance the hell out of... another metaphor for ya: It's like a brawl between a 5 year old and a 20 year old. They each have 20 friends watching from the sidelines for an outcome when you know that if they just got into now, they'd end the misery quick and painlessly...
Ali @ Mar 1st 2007 6:22AM
So I'm guessing toshiba got jealous of the 50GB BD discs that are already available and created another with just 1GIG Whoopty fucking doo!
Peter @ Mar 1st 2007 8:24AM
To do this they expand the layers by one and expand each layer to 17G from 15. All just to catch BR. There is no way these new disks would work in already shipping players so this is just as theoretical as the 100 and 200GB BR disks.
Lame.
Rob @ Mar 1st 2007 9:51AM
to all the people saying how much better bluray is, do you even own a bluray player?
hd-dvd is killing in sales of units and movies.
i was going to support bluray b/c i bought a ps3 and didnt want to pay for another hd player. ps3 sucked though so i sold it.
in the end i dont give a shit which format wins, as long as we get the cheapest disc with the most storage.
all this talk about 100 and 200 GB discs that have already been developed is bull. where are they? will they work on current gen bluray players? doubt it.
Alan Strangis @ Mar 1st 2007 10:08AM
toki9 is right. This war is teh lame.
If there's no winner by the end of next holiday season, it's going to be irrelevant, because there's enough online HD rental options coming out to make the 'movie player' aspect outdated, and hard drives are getting so cheap it would be easier to build a NAS than to back up to this stuff.
It's getting to the point where I'm just gonna torrent HD content, and to relieve my guilt, anonymously mail $5 to the studio who's movie I'm downloading (with the name of the pirated movie written on the bill). :)
COM-4 @ Mar 1st 2007 12:13PM
Wow just look at all of the defensive SONY/Beta-ray fanboys. I guess deep down they do fear this 51GB HD DVD.
Oh btw if this 51GB HD DVD gets approved by the DVD Forum, a double sided 102 GB HD DVD isn't too far behind since it's all based on DVD structure.
Finally there is no 100GB or 200GB Beta-ray ROM discs in development, but keep dreaming. You know why? It's VERY expensive to manufacture even if you could do it which at this point in time isn't even in the prototype stage. See you later fanboys!
liquor @ Mar 1st 2007 1:26PM
Blu-Ray is a better quality format, but it will lose out because Sony is stupid and doesn't learn their lessons.
Beta was a better format 20 years ago and the number one reason it lost was that it was propriatary,
they required licensing of duplicators/replicators and they threatened to pull licensing from any plants that
worked with adult content.
They've done the same thing with Blu-Ray. Vivid, Wicked, Digital Playground, Zero Tolerance....
all the major adult companies planned to release their first hd titles in Blu-Ray but they couldn't find any
replicators that would risk getting their licensing revoked by sony. So the first adult hd titles are all HD-DVD.
Porn drives adoption of new technology, not disney. Blu-Ray will lose because sony is stupidly prudish.
Rick wilson @ Mar 1st 2007 2:28PM
@Rob, actually I can clear up some of your concerns.
1)HD DVD is not "killing in units and sales" it is loosing in units and sales. You are looking at "since conception" numbers back when blu-ray was not released yet. as of this year, both formats have had equal time and blu-ray is cleaning the floor with hd-dvd.
2)PS3 may suck in terms of games right now, but as far as a blu-ray player, you passed up on the best/cheapest one. slot load, Bluetooth remote control, networkable for downloading trailers etc. Very good player for the money.
3)In the end you want the cheapest/most capacity. Well, with capacity comes cost, so you'll get the highest capacity (200GB BD-disc) but it won't be the cheapest (51GB HD disc)... but per gigabyte it WILL be if you lower blu-ray back down to 50GB it has been out much longer and will be faster, cheaper, and more reliable technology.
4)You think the 100GB and 200GB discs are bull? You are a consumer, we don't go out to your homes with new/unreleased technology and say "here you go, have one so you'll believe us". 100GB BD is done, finito, and 200GB is still being tested, but close to being done.
And as a minor note, 100GB and 200GB discs still work within the BD movie playback spec, so all your players will be able to read them. ::: cheers :::
Geoff Gibson @ Mar 1st 2007 2:45PM
@ Rick Wilson
1. HD DvD is winning, worldwide they are outselling Blu-ray. Hell in Britain alone they are outselling Blu-ray almost 5 to 1. In the U.S. Blu-ray has grabbed a small lead over HD DvD, that is correct.
2. Seriously, Blu-ray is an EXTRA for the PS3. If you don't like the system for its games, there is NO point in owning it at all. Blu-ray is not a definitive winner yet, and the same goes with HD DvD.
3. What does all this 100-200gb space mean exactly? Extra Super High Definition? Please...most people in America can't even afford a HD-TV that scales up to 720p, let alone even make it to 1080p. The kind of HD capacity that a 100-200gb disc can hold is reserved for whatever is going to come after 1080p which will sell for tens of thousands of dollars. 30-50gb's is enough for a standard HD movie.
4. The 100-200gb discs are in developement, but thats all they are. The 51gb disc is NOT in developement. Its out now, beginning of 2007. Yes that means that HD DvD has the lead in capacity right now. Shocking! The development for these discs can go as planned and we may very well see a 100gb Blu-ray disc in 2008, or something could go horribly wrong and we may never see anything higher than a 50gb. Thats what developement means. Don't compare it to the 51gb until you actually have a final product.
HD DvD has more than one company backing it by the way. They currently have exclusives to: Universal Studios(including subsidiaries Rogue Pictures/Focus Features) and The Weinstein Company/Genius Products(includes Dimension Films)
as well as Porn studio exclusives to: Wicked Pictures, Pink Visual, Bang Bros, and ClubJenna Inc. (which on 22 June 2006 was acquired by Playboy Enterprises)
They have non exclusives to: Paramount Pictures, Dreamworks, Warner Bros. Pictures, Warner Music Group, New Line Cinema, HBO, Studio Canal, and Image Entertainment (including Discovery Channel),[24] Magnolia Pictures,[25] Brentwood Home Video, Ryko, Koch/Goldhil Entertainment,[26] . HP, LG, Lite On, Onkyo, Meridan and Alpine
as well as Porn studio non exclusives: Vivid Entertainment, and Digital Playground Inc.
The non-exclusives also having movies on Blu-ray, naturally.
I am sick of all this rampant fanboy-ism. People trash one product or another simply because they feel some undying loyalty to a company who is only after their money. It is quite nauseating. For the love of god get your facts straight before declaring one having an advantage over the other. I don't know who will win, and both products look stunning. Based on history I'd say HD DvD will win because Sony is notorious for backing the losers and Fox and Disney have also backed the losers before. Fox and Disney exclusively released content on DIVX(not the same as DivX) in the DvD vs DIVX format war. Guess who won?
Daniel @ Mar 1st 2007 2:59PM
This story is FALSE! Toshiba announced today that they are confused as to how this rumor got started. Here's the site:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/03/01/HNtoshiba51gbhddvd_1.html
Rick wilson @ Mar 1st 2007 9:30PM
@Geoff Gibson: Yeah, i think the posts following yours clear things up... YOU need to get your facts straight, not us. I actually work in the industry, so I haven't sunk my money into anything, I actually have been given money to use this technology, so I'm not biased. Blu-ray rulez, HD drulez... technically speaking.
Geoff @ Mar 1st 2007 3:32PM
P.S.
Currently the following studios support Blu-ray EXCLUSIVELY: Columbia Pictures, MGM, Disney and 20th Century Fox (Columbia Pictures and MGM are owned by Sony Pictures)
They currently have no Porn studio exclusives.